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	<title>Comments for The Mormon Organon</title>
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	<link>http://sciencebysteve.net</link>
	<description>A BYU Biology Professor Looks at Science and the LDS Faith</description>
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		<title>Comment on Death, the Fall, and Darwin: A More Harmonious Reading, Part 1 of 7 by Tom Davies</title>
		<link>http://sciencebysteve.net/death-the-fall-and-darwin-a-more-harmonious-reading-part-1-of-7/comment-page-1/#comment-6052</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Davies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 May 2013 02:36:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I look forward to seeing where you go with this. It is my belief that souls have been interacting with human life forms for perhaps hundreds of thousands of years, nudging the evolution of these life forms to the current state of development. It makes sense to me that this interaction of souls with physical bodies is not a one-time thing, but over the course of human evolutionary development could have occurred hundreds, if not thousands, of times. Thus, through this repeated interaction between soul and physical body, there may be not only an evolution of the physical body but also of the soul, as it perfects itself. At my current level of understanding, I fail to see the relevance of the Fall and the Atonement as it relates to the evolutionary development of the soul. Hopefully you will be able to enlighten me, and perhaps others, on this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I look forward to seeing where you go with this. It is my belief that souls have been interacting with human life forms for perhaps hundreds of thousands of years, nudging the evolution of these life forms to the current state of development. It makes sense to me that this interaction of souls with physical bodies is not a one-time thing, but over the course of human evolutionary development could have occurred hundreds, if not thousands, of times. Thus, through this repeated interaction between soul and physical body, there may be not only an evolution of the physical body but also of the soul, as it perfects itself. At my current level of understanding, I fail to see the relevance of the Fall and the Atonement as it relates to the evolutionary development of the soul. Hopefully you will be able to enlighten me, and perhaps others, on this.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Death, the Fall, and Darwin: A More Harmonious Reading, Part 1 of 7 by Ken Reed</title>
		<link>http://sciencebysteve.net/death-the-fall-and-darwin-a-more-harmonious-reading-part-1-of-7/comment-page-1/#comment-6051</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Reed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 May 2013 17:38:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sciencebysteve.net/?p=2666#comment-6051</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think of the creations story as what it is: a representation of the belief systems in Sumerian times a few thousand years BC. Earth as a saucer with a lid on it (firmament). The lid has lights in it. It has floodgates and sprinklers where rain and floodwater comes from.  The Adam and Eve story was simply the ancient creation myth of Mesopotamia.

OK, so why do we tell it now? I think the symbolism is relevant, in particular from the perspective of Mormon theology. Here goes:

Humans evolved as evidenced by paleontology, archaeology, biochemistry, genetics, and common sense. We evolved from critters in Africa and disbursed over time. Previous migrations left Neanderthals in Europe, Homo Erectus in Asia, etc. A 2nd wave out of Africa seems apparent from DNA mapping and analysis. So, as Huntsman said, &quot;... I believe in evolution and trust the scientists ... So shoot me!&quot; To me, with a PhD. in ecology, it is ludicrous to argue that man did not evolve. Homo Sapiens differed from Neanderthals in that they had a creative mindset. They had art, made clothing, had needles, and sculpture. That they interbred to some extent is evidenced by Neanderthal markers in our genome, but they certainly out-competed the Neanderthals and probably exterminated them. Likewise with any residual Homo Erectus groups still alive in Asia. To argue against human evolution is simply ... ignorant.

Now here is the argument for keeping the old story alive. Christ spoke in parables which have layers of meaning. Yet we&#039;re expected by some to not ascribe layers of meaning to the creation myth. A key LDS tenant is that we do not consider the Bible to be inerrant. We also believe that those billions who have not received the law cannot sin (defined as violation of the law). So now, all we have to do is elevate the conceptual level of the parable.

Adam and Eve in the Garden represent humanity before the law, living in a state of innocence. They cannot sin, not having the law. Eden is not a place, it is a STATE. A state of innocence. At some point, God ordains the first prophet, symbolized by Adam. The law, symbolized by the fruit, removes the innocence. &quot;You shall not surely die, but have knowledge of good and evil ... etc&quot;. Now there can be sin on earth. But LDS doctrine claims that those billions who have never received the law cannot be held accountable for it. We do not require baptism of innocents (Down&#039;s syndrome, etc). We do not condemn pagans to hell. Christ&#039;s atonement covers them and they can make a choice in the next world.

So two things: Eden is a state and the fruit is symbolic of the low. Simple. Uncomplicated, and certainly consistent with Mormon theology.

But, since many people do not think logically, maybe some scriptural quotes will help. Personally, I don&#039;t need them. That God exists and has modern prophets is merely common sense. I dont&#039; know what God does when he goes to work in the morning, but to paraphrase Givens and Givens (The God Who Weeps), a god who creates billions of humans and condemns 99.9999 percent of them to everlasting torture and suffering, is not a god worthy of worship. I reject the neo-Platonism of the Nicene creed as bilious Greek nonsense. I&#039;ll stick with science and the LDS perspective. It simply fits the evidence better.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think of the creations story as what it is: a representation of the belief systems in Sumerian times a few thousand years BC. Earth as a saucer with a lid on it (firmament). The lid has lights in it. It has floodgates and sprinklers where rain and floodwater comes from.  The Adam and Eve story was simply the ancient creation myth of Mesopotamia.</p>
<p>OK, so why do we tell it now? I think the symbolism is relevant, in particular from the perspective of Mormon theology. Here goes:</p>
<p>Humans evolved as evidenced by paleontology, archaeology, biochemistry, genetics, and common sense. We evolved from critters in Africa and disbursed over time. Previous migrations left Neanderthals in Europe, Homo Erectus in Asia, etc. A 2nd wave out of Africa seems apparent from DNA mapping and analysis. So, as Huntsman said, &#8220;&#8230; I believe in evolution and trust the scientists &#8230; So shoot me!&#8221; To me, with a PhD. in ecology, it is ludicrous to argue that man did not evolve. Homo Sapiens differed from Neanderthals in that they had a creative mindset. They had art, made clothing, had needles, and sculpture. That they interbred to some extent is evidenced by Neanderthal markers in our genome, but they certainly out-competed the Neanderthals and probably exterminated them. Likewise with any residual Homo Erectus groups still alive in Asia. To argue against human evolution is simply &#8230; ignorant.</p>
<p>Now here is the argument for keeping the old story alive. Christ spoke in parables which have layers of meaning. Yet we&#8217;re expected by some to not ascribe layers of meaning to the creation myth. A key LDS tenant is that we do not consider the Bible to be inerrant. We also believe that those billions who have not received the law cannot sin (defined as violation of the law). So now, all we have to do is elevate the conceptual level of the parable.</p>
<p>Adam and Eve in the Garden represent humanity before the law, living in a state of innocence. They cannot sin, not having the law. Eden is not a place, it is a STATE. A state of innocence. At some point, God ordains the first prophet, symbolized by Adam. The law, symbolized by the fruit, removes the innocence. &#8220;You shall not surely die, but have knowledge of good and evil &#8230; etc&#8221;. Now there can be sin on earth. But LDS doctrine claims that those billions who have never received the law cannot be held accountable for it. We do not require baptism of innocents (Down&#8217;s syndrome, etc). We do not condemn pagans to hell. Christ&#8217;s atonement covers them and they can make a choice in the next world.</p>
<p>So two things: Eden is a state and the fruit is symbolic of the low. Simple. Uncomplicated, and certainly consistent with Mormon theology.</p>
<p>But, since many people do not think logically, maybe some scriptural quotes will help. Personally, I don&#8217;t need them. That God exists and has modern prophets is merely common sense. I dont&#8217; know what God does when he goes to work in the morning, but to paraphrase Givens and Givens (The God Who Weeps), a god who creates billions of humans and condemns 99.9999 percent of them to everlasting torture and suffering, is not a god worthy of worship. I reject the neo-Platonism of the Nicene creed as bilious Greek nonsense. I&#8217;ll stick with science and the LDS perspective. It simply fits the evidence better.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Death, the Fall, and Darwin: A More Harmonious Reading, Part 1 of 7 by Joseph Smidt</title>
		<link>http://sciencebysteve.net/death-the-fall-and-darwin-a-more-harmonious-reading-part-1-of-7/comment-page-1/#comment-6050</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Smidt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 May 2013 03:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Thanks SteveP. I am happy you will point in this direction. I&#039;m sure this will be an awesome series.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks SteveP. I am happy you will point in this direction. I&#8217;m sure this will be an awesome series.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Death, the Fall, and Darwin: A More Harmonious Reading, Part 1 of 7 by SteveP</title>
		<link>http://sciencebysteve.net/death-the-fall-and-darwin-a-more-harmonious-reading-part-1-of-7/comment-page-1/#comment-6049</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 May 2013 03:19:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sciencebysteve.net/?p=2666#comment-6049</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joseph, Thanks! I&#039;ll be pointing in the direction you suggest, because it turns out that evolution and Mormonism put together conspire to give us an embodied, physical, God that fits very nicely LDS conceptions. We&#039;ll see though and weigh in if you&#039;re not satisfied at the end of this exercise.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joseph, Thanks! I&#8217;ll be pointing in the direction you suggest, because it turns out that evolution and Mormonism put together conspire to give us an embodied, physical, God that fits very nicely LDS conceptions. We&#8217;ll see though and weigh in if you&#8217;re not satisfied at the end of this exercise.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Death, the Fall, and Darwin: A More Harmonious Reading, Part 1 of 7 by Joseph Smidt</title>
		<link>http://sciencebysteve.net/death-the-fall-and-darwin-a-more-harmonious-reading-part-1-of-7/comment-page-1/#comment-6048</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Smidt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 May 2013 02:07:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sciencebysteve.net/?p=2666#comment-6048</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am very excited SteveP.  I think this will be a great series. That said, I hear most Mormon intellectuals trying to explain what the &quot;Mormon&quot; God is.  And though that&#039;s all great and fine, at the end of the day I don&#039;t care what the &quot;Mormon&quot; concept of God is, all I care about is what the actual God is.  At the end of the day, saying the Book of Mormon suggests that we believe in a contingent God who weeps is just intellectual distraction is the actual God is neo-platonist. 

Now, I&#039;m *not* trying to defend a neo-platonic God with this comment.  All I am claiming is I am less interested in what &quot;Mormon&quot; God is than what the actual God is. Therefore, if it isn&#039;t too much of a tangent, I would appreciate it if you could in your series argue that not only is this God a good Mormon God, but that we have every reason to believe this God is actual.  Because again, to me the more interesting topic is: what God is actual and how can we know it?  Not: which God is Mormon? (Though I hope it turns out they are they same.)

But despite my one issue, I am *very* excited for this series.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am very excited SteveP.  I think this will be a great series. That said, I hear most Mormon intellectuals trying to explain what the &#8220;Mormon&#8221; God is.  And though that&#8217;s all great and fine, at the end of the day I don&#8217;t care what the &#8220;Mormon&#8221; concept of God is, all I care about is what the actual God is.  At the end of the day, saying the Book of Mormon suggests that we believe in a contingent God who weeps is just intellectual distraction is the actual God is neo-platonist. </p>
<p>Now, I&#8217;m *not* trying to defend a neo-platonic God with this comment.  All I am claiming is I am less interested in what &#8220;Mormon&#8221; God is than what the actual God is. Therefore, if it isn&#8217;t too much of a tangent, I would appreciate it if you could in your series argue that not only is this God a good Mormon God, but that we have every reason to believe this God is actual.  Because again, to me the more interesting topic is: what God is actual and how can we know it?  Not: which God is Mormon? (Though I hope it turns out they are they same.)</p>
<p>But despite my one issue, I am *very* excited for this series.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A BYU Bio-Professor Explores Science and Faith by A Short Stay in Hell with Steven L. Peck &#124; Mormon Stories Podcast</title>
		<link>http://sciencebysteve.net/about/comment-page-1/#comment-6047</link>
		<dc:creator>A Short Stay in Hell with Steven L. Peck &#124; Mormon Stories Podcast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2013 07:33:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sciencebysteve.net/?page_id=2#comment-6047</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] http://sciencebysteve.net/about/ [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://sciencebysteve.net/about/" rel="nofollow">http://sciencebysteve.net/about/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Can An Evolutionary Process Generate English Text?  Guest Post by David Bailey! by Alex</title>
		<link>http://sciencebysteve.net/can-an-evolutionary-process-generate-english-text-guest-post-by-david-bailey/comment-page-1/#comment-6046</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2013 02:17:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sciencebysteve.net/?p=474#comment-6046</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not sure why this program is relevent as it doesn&#039;t model evolution due to your use of a pseudorandom number generator.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure why this program is relevent as it doesn&#8217;t model evolution due to your use of a pseudorandom number generator.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How I teach the ways of science at the Y by Ken reed</title>
		<link>http://sciencebysteve.net/how-i-teach-the-ways-of-science-at-the-y/comment-page-1/#comment-6045</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken reed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2013 18:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sciencebysteve.net/?p=2587#comment-6045</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m a Mormon with a PhD in Systems Ecology. I don&#039;t remember when I believed the Genesis story. I left the church while in high school. But I came back to the Church when I was on the faculty at Yale. It was tough, but the welcome I got in the New Haven ward was great. I felt the spirit but could not deny the science. And I still don&#039;t believe the Genesis story. Nor do I believe that God has to design everything. The universe and the laws of physics that exist, with the parameter settings that enable life, speaks to a natural cause. The universe IS and does not have to be designed. Simple paradigm shift. Leonard Suskind (the string theory guy) wrote a great book &quot;The Cosmic Landscape&quot; wherein he proposes that our universe is but one a possible infinity of universes; one that can support life. Geology, evolutionary biology, archeology, chemistry, physics all speak to the universality (within our universe at least) of an integrated SYSTEM, self sustaining, self-modifying, evolving. Mormon theology is based on the concept of an embodied God, who&#039;s work and glory is concerned with US, the humans or humanoids populating this self-sustaining evolving universe. The majesty of God is not that he &quot;created&quot; all of this. In fact, he may not have (I don&#039;t know what God does when he goes to work). The majesty is that God UNDERSTANDS the universe and His and our place within it. The Glory is that we have an opportunity to learn this ourselves, that we&#039;re not just mayflies, soon to become extinct. We may become as the Gods. Ever learning, ever growing, eternal progression.

This is a simple paradigm shift that drops the Platonic concept of an immaterial God and the ancient view that God angrily destroys his creation and angrily throws all non-believers and sinners into a Hell of endless torment. I can&#039;t believe in such a god. But I can believe that Joseph Smith saw an embodied God and His son, Jesus. Why not, if God exists?

There one other requirement for my belief: I cannot accept Biblical inerrancy, nor can I accept any human infallibility. Mormonism does not teach inerrancy and infallibility. So what&#039;s the problem? Jesus taught with parables that can be understood by the faithful, but which have many levels of meaning. The scriptures reflect the state of learning and understanding of their authors. They are products of their time and place. So what&#039;s the problem with integrating science and current knowledge into our interpretation of the ancient scriptures? A hundred years from now, this will be the prevailing LDS paradigm.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a Mormon with a PhD in Systems Ecology. I don&#8217;t remember when I believed the Genesis story. I left the church while in high school. But I came back to the Church when I was on the faculty at Yale. It was tough, but the welcome I got in the New Haven ward was great. I felt the spirit but could not deny the science. And I still don&#8217;t believe the Genesis story. Nor do I believe that God has to design everything. The universe and the laws of physics that exist, with the parameter settings that enable life, speaks to a natural cause. The universe IS and does not have to be designed. Simple paradigm shift. Leonard Suskind (the string theory guy) wrote a great book &#8220;The Cosmic Landscape&#8221; wherein he proposes that our universe is but one a possible infinity of universes; one that can support life. Geology, evolutionary biology, archeology, chemistry, physics all speak to the universality (within our universe at least) of an integrated SYSTEM, self sustaining, self-modifying, evolving. Mormon theology is based on the concept of an embodied God, who&#8217;s work and glory is concerned with US, the humans or humanoids populating this self-sustaining evolving universe. The majesty of God is not that he &#8220;created&#8221; all of this. In fact, he may not have (I don&#8217;t know what God does when he goes to work). The majesty is that God UNDERSTANDS the universe and His and our place within it. The Glory is that we have an opportunity to learn this ourselves, that we&#8217;re not just mayflies, soon to become extinct. We may become as the Gods. Ever learning, ever growing, eternal progression.</p>
<p>This is a simple paradigm shift that drops the Platonic concept of an immaterial God and the ancient view that God angrily destroys his creation and angrily throws all non-believers and sinners into a Hell of endless torment. I can&#8217;t believe in such a god. But I can believe that Joseph Smith saw an embodied God and His son, Jesus. Why not, if God exists?</p>
<p>There one other requirement for my belief: I cannot accept Biblical inerrancy, nor can I accept any human infallibility. Mormonism does not teach inerrancy and infallibility. So what&#8217;s the problem? Jesus taught with parables that can be understood by the faithful, but which have many levels of meaning. The scriptures reflect the state of learning and understanding of their authors. They are products of their time and place. So what&#8217;s the problem with integrating science and current knowledge into our interpretation of the ancient scriptures? A hundred years from now, this will be the prevailing LDS paradigm.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Wise advice on Sunday School Teaching by Ken reed</title>
		<link>http://sciencebysteve.net/wise-advice-on-sunday-school-teaching/comment-page-1/#comment-6044</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken reed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sciencebysteve.net/?p=2620#comment-6044</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Too often I&#039;ve sat in Gospel Doctrine as a teacher blithely discusses Eden, Adam, Eve et al. as if Adam and Eve were actual persons and Eden was a place. I don&#039;t remember ever believing the story, at least from 4th grade on. Yet as a symbolic parable, Genesis works quite well. Eden is a state. A state of innocence. Adam and Eve represent humanity in Eden, sinless and innocent. Until they taste the fruit of knowledge symbolic of the law. Upon receipt of the law, man is innocent. After the law, man is responsible. Mormon doctrine is cognizant of this distinction. And the law requires writing, which implies a civilization. And thus the law, begun in Old Testament times is delivered through prophets, who write it down. Those who don&#039;t receive the law in life get another chance. After the Age of Reason, in the Age of Science, a new religion is born. A religion compatible with the prophets of old and the scientists of new.

Thanks Stephen for helping.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Too often I&#8217;ve sat in Gospel Doctrine as a teacher blithely discusses Eden, Adam, Eve et al. as if Adam and Eve were actual persons and Eden was a place. I don&#8217;t remember ever believing the story, at least from 4th grade on. Yet as a symbolic parable, Genesis works quite well. Eden is a state. A state of innocence. Adam and Eve represent humanity in Eden, sinless and innocent. Until they taste the fruit of knowledge symbolic of the law. Upon receipt of the law, man is innocent. After the law, man is responsible. Mormon doctrine is cognizant of this distinction. And the law requires writing, which implies a civilization. And thus the law, begun in Old Testament times is delivered through prophets, who write it down. Those who don&#8217;t receive the law in life get another chance. After the Age of Reason, in the Age of Science, a new religion is born. A religion compatible with the prophets of old and the scientists of new.</p>
<p>Thanks Stephen for helping.</p>
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		<title>Comment on On guns by Cap</title>
		<link>http://sciencebysteve.net/on-guns/comment-page-1/#comment-6042</link>
		<dc:creator>Cap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2013 02:32:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sciencebysteve.net/?p=2646#comment-6042</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great post. These things definitely need to be addressed and understood better. I must say, I am proud to see that many people are starting to see in this light and are looking or even voicing a demand for change. I&#039;ve noticed that there are only a few (comparatively speaking) that are fighting to keep assault rifles. Unfortunately, those same few are the most loudly outspoken people. I do see good change coming. 

Thanks again for the article. I enjoyed it and couldn&#039;t agree more.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post. These things definitely need to be addressed and understood better. I must say, I am proud to see that many people are starting to see in this light and are looking or even voicing a demand for change. I&#8217;ve noticed that there are only a few (comparatively speaking) that are fighting to keep assault rifles. Unfortunately, those same few are the most loudly outspoken people. I do see good change coming. </p>
<p>Thanks again for the article. I enjoyed it and couldn&#8217;t agree more.</p>
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